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I-864 - Joint Sponsors & I-864 for multiple cases

I-864 Affidavit of Support

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Old 04-08-10, 08:45 AM   #1
..kimi....kimi.. is offline
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I-864 - Joint Sponsors & I-864 for multiple cases

After reading this forum for the last two days, I am beginning to make sense of this process, but of course, I have some additional questions. First off, Iím so excited for my father because he is finally able to reunite with his 3 brothers after waiting for 10 years! I have paid the AOS fee for the applicants and now trying to figure out how to complete the I-864 correctly.

Case 1: Uncle 1 is the principle, since the petition, he gotten married, with a child and has one on the way. On the original document, it listed him as single.

Case 2: Uncle 2 is the principle, married, with 3 children. The original form shows his spouse and 2 children but doesnít show the last addition to the family.

My father is the petitioner and will be the sponsor for all three uncles. Currently, we only have visas approve for 2 of them so hence why I only listed two scenario. My father currently has a household size of 5, and will need to sponsor Uncle 1ís family of 3 and Uncle 2ís family of 5.

Total = 5 + 3 + 5 = 13

13 is a very large number for my father to sponsor independently so I have now signed up as a joint sponsor. I do not live with my father and have been living independently on my own for the last 6 years. My father will fill out I-864 form for both Uncles. My father will have enough income to sponsor Uncle 1ís family on his own, make a total household size of 8. The problem exist when he tries to sponsor Uncle 2ís family

My Questions:

1. Since my father will not have enough income to sponsor Uncle 2ís family, does he have to list the principle and additional dependents that will be migrating with the principle on the I-864 form?

2. As a joint sponsor, I plan to list all of Uncle 2ís family on my I-864 form. Will this conflict with my fatherís I-864 form since we are listing the principle and dependents twice, once on my fatherís form and once on my form?

3. Last question, since my AOS is in paid status and I have printed the Document sheet, can I complete the I-864 form now, attached all required documents and send it in or do I have to wait until I get the package instructions from NVC first?

Any help will be greatly appreciated, thanks.
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Old 04-08-10, 11:02 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ..kimi.. View Post
After reading this forum for the last two days, I am beginning to make sense of this process, but of course, I have some additional questions. First off, I’m so excited for my father because he is finally able to reunite with his 3 brothers after waiting for 10 years! I have paid the AOS fee for the applicants and now trying to figure out how to complete the I-864 correctly.

Case 1: Uncle 1 is the principle, since the petition, he gotten married, with a child and has one on the way. On the original document, it listed him as single.

Case 2: Uncle 2 is the principle, married, with 3 children. The original form shows his spouse and 2 children but doesn’t show the last addition to the family.

My father is the petitioner and will be the sponsor for all three uncles. Currently, we only have visas approve for 2 of them so hence why I only listed two scenario. My father currently has a household size of 5, and will need to sponsor Uncle 1’s family of 3 and Uncle 2’s family of 5.

Total = 5 + 3 + 5 = 13

13 is a very large number for my father to sponsor independently so I have now signed up as a joint sponsor. I do not live with my father and have been living independently on my own for the last 6 years. My father will fill out I-864 form for both Uncles. My father will have enough income to sponsor Uncle 1’s family on his own, make a total household size of 8. The problem exist when he tries to sponsor Uncle 2’s family

My Questions:

1. Since my father will not have enough income to sponsor Uncle 2’s family, does he have to list the principle and additional dependents that will be migrating with the principle on the I-864 form?

2. As a joint sponsor, I plan to list all of Uncle 2’s family on my I-864 form. Will this conflict with my father’s I-864 form since we are listing the principle and dependents twice, once on my father’s form and once on my form?

3. Last question, since my AOS is in paid status and I have printed the Document sheet, can I complete the I-864 form now, attached all required documents and send it in or do I have to wait until I get the package instructions from NVC first?

First off, understand that currently no visas are approved for anyone. Your father has 2 petitions approved, which means that 2 of his brothers, and their families, can apply for visas.

1. I would follow the instructions as they are given. Following the instructions, your father will prepare 2 separate I-864s, 1 for each brother. On each brother's I-864 list only that brother's family members. (If it turns out that the instructions are wrong, and your father gets an RFE, then I would follow the new instructions contained in the RFE. And I would report back to the group so that a better answer can be given next time.)

2. No conflict. Your father is sponsoring brother #2's family, you are joint sponsoring brother #2's family. Both your father and you are assuming responsibility for brother #2. Both your father and you have to show on your I-864s who it is that you are responsible for.

3. If you have the document cover sheet you can send the document that the sheet covers.


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Old 04-08-10, 11:20 AM   #3
vietnamkidvietnamkid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ..kimi.. View Post
After reading this forum for the last two days, I am beginning to make sense of this process, but of course, I have some additional questions. First off, Iím so excited for my father because he is finally able to reunite with his 3 brothers after waiting for 10 years! I have paid the AOS fee for the applicants and now trying to figure out how to complete the I-864 correctly.

Case 1: Uncle 1 is the principle, since the petition, he gotten married, with a child and has one on the way. On the original document, it listed him as single.

Case 2: Uncle 2 is the principle, married, with 3 children. The original form shows his spouse and 2 children but doesnít show the last addition to the family.

My father is the petitioner and will be the sponsor for all three uncles. Currently, we only have visas approve for 2 of them so hence why I only listed two scenario. My father currently has a household size of 5, and will need to sponsor Uncle 1ís family of 3 and Uncle 2ís family of 5.

Total = 5 + 3 + 5 = 13

13 is a very large number for my father to sponsor independently so I have now signed up as a joint sponsor. I do not live with my father and have been living independently on my own for the last 6 years. My father will fill out I-864 form for both Uncles. My father will have enough income to sponsor Uncle 1ís family on his own, make a total household size of 8. The problem exist when he tries to sponsor Uncle 2ís family

My Questions:

1. Since my father will not have enough income to sponsor Uncle 2ís family, does he have to list the principle and additional dependents that will be migrating with the principle on the I-864 form? Your father must list 13 on both I-864s because he is the petitioner. A petitioner is financially responsible for everyone he petitions for.

2. As a joint sponsor, I plan to list all of Uncle 2ís family on my I-864 form. Will this conflict with my fatherís I-864 form since we are listing the principle and dependents twice, once on my fatherís form and once on my form? If you are only filing for Uncle 2, you list everyone in his family. So it's everyone you are responsible for + 5. You and your father (the petitioner) are both financially responsible for Uncle 2 and his family. A Joint Sponsor (you) does not relieve the petitioner (your father) of his financial obligation to the immigrants.

3. Last question, since my AOS is in paid status and I have printed the Document sheet, can I complete the I-864 form now, attached all required documents and send it in or do I have to wait until I get the package instructions from NVC first? You and your father can do it now. Everything is electronic. You will not be getting a package through the US mail.

Any help will be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Since your father does not have enough resources to meet the 125% poverty level for 13, he will need Joint Sponsors for both uncles. You've taken care of Uncle 2. Uncle 1 will need a Joint Sponsor also.

The key point is that a Joint Sponsor does not relieve the Petitioner of his obligations. That is why the same immigrant is listed once on the Petitioner's I-864 and again on the Joint Sponsor's I-864. Both are responsible.
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Old 04-08-10, 01:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vietnamkid View Post
Since your father does not have enough resources to meet the 125% poverty level for 13, he will need Joint Sponsors for both uncles. You've taken care of Uncle 2. Uncle 1 will need a Joint Sponsor also.
I'm not sure about that. I think that if a petitioner has the resources to sponsor a certain number of immigrants then the petitioner can sponsor that number without needing a joint sponsor. A joint sponsor is required only for the number of immigrants in excess of the number that the petitioner can sponsor on their own.

In this case, because there are two family groups based on only two petitions, they will be treated as two groups of 3 and 5 respectively, rather than as 8 individual immigrants.

Which now causes me to re-open the issue of how to deal with item 21.f. It's quite possible that the two families would be getting their visas, and entering the USA, at different times. If brother #1's family gets their visas and enters the USA before brother #2's family, that would definitely change the answer to 21.f. If brother #2's family gets their visas first it would be even more complicated, and I would come to the same conclusion that you did.

I can see that some updated I-864s might be called for at inverview time. And if it were me facing this issue I'd be having a consultation with my friendly local family-based immigration attorney.


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Old 04-08-10, 03:39 PM   #5
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Raven,

I believe that the obligation to keep the I-864 current exists from the time of submission until the interview.

Since both uncles were probably petitioned for at the same time, their cases will be handled concurrently. One will not likely finish before the other one starts.

Given the need to keep the I-864s current, I believe that the correct number is 13 for the petitioner.

A consultation with a qualified immigration lawyer is not a bad idea.
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Old 04-08-10, 03:46 PM   #6
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Thanks for the quick response Raven & vietnamkid. I have to double check but my income may be able to sponsor all 8 of my relatives plus me, which make my household as 9. I would just fill out another I-864 form as a joint sponsor for Uncle 1. I don't want to create any problems if anything comes down the line.

Thanks for your advice on sending out the I-864 form. I have requested my transcript from the IRS and hope to expedite the process as soon as possible.

My father has gathered all the required documents and certificates for the DS-230 form so I will be getting that completed as soon as I can.

If there are anything else that I am missing, please let me know, thanks once again!!!
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Old 04-08-10, 04:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vietnamkid View Post
I believe that the obligation to keep the I-864 current exists from the time of submission until the interview.
I disagree. I believe that the I-864 needs to be accurate at both points in time. If there is no change during the interval between submission and interview then no update is needed. If there is a change then the interview is a good time to submit the update. In any case, item 21.f is 0 for both brothers at the time of submission, and it isn't going to change for either brother until the other brother's family has entered the USA.

Going off on a tangent, the I-864 should also be accurate at the time of visa issuance, and may be reviewed and updated yet again at that point if there is a long time delay between interview and visa issuance (as with the medical exam and police certificate).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vietnamkid View Post
Since both uncles were probably petitioned for at the same time, their cases will be handled concurrently. One will not likely finish before the other one starts.
I disagree that the cases will be handled concurrently. They are two separate cases and will be handled as such. I do agree that it's unlikely that one brother's family will move so fast, and the other's so slow, that they get significantly far apart. But when one case is completed it will go forward to the consulate without regard to the status of the other case.

I agree that one will not likely finish before other starts, but that's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about one family entering the USA, thus becoming PRs, before the other family has been interviewed. Also unlikely but far more possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vietnamkid View Post
Given the need to keep the I-864s current, I believe that the correct number is 13 for the petitioner.
Taking the I-864 language and instructions at face value, how do you propose to show this? At time of submission to the NVC item 21.a is 3 for brother #1 and 5 for brother #2. Item 21.f is 0 for both, and that will not change until one family or the other has entered the USA. There is no mechanism for showing both of the imigrating families on one I-864 until one of the families has in fact immigrated.


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Old 04-08-10, 05:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vietnamkid View Post
I believe that the obligation to keep the I-864 current exists from the time of submission until the interview.
I disagree. I believe that the I-864 needs to be accurate at both points in time. If there is no change during the interval between submission and interview then no update is needed. If there is a change then the interview is a good time to submit the update. In any case, item 21.f is 0 for both brothers at the time of submission, and it isn't going to change for either brother until the other brother's family has entered the USA.

Going off on a tangent, the I-864 should also be accurate at the time of visa issuance, and may be reviewed and updated yet again at that point if there is a long time delay between interview and visa issuance (as with the medical exam and police certificate).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vietnamkid View Post
Since both uncles were probably petitioned for at the same time, their cases will be handled concurrently. One will not likely finish before the other one starts.
I disagree that the cases will be handled concurrently. They are two separate cases and will be handled as such. I do agree that it's unlikely that one brother's family will move so fast, and the other's so slow, that they get significantly far apart. But when one case is completed it will go forward to the consulate without regard to the status of the other case.

I agree that one will not likely finish before other starts, but that's not the situation I'm talking about. I'm talking about one family entering the USA, thus becoming PRs, before the other family has been interviewed. Also unlikely but far more possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vietnamkid View Post
Given the need to keep the I-864s current, I believe that the correct number is 13 for the petitioner.
Taking the I-864 language and instructions at face value, how do you propose to show this? At time of submission to the NVC item 21.a is 3 for brother #1 and 5 for brother #2. Item 21.f is 0 for both, and that will not change until one family or the other has entered the USA. There is no mechanism for showing both of the imigrating families on one I-864 until one of the families has in fact immigrated.

Our differences is semantics - choices of words.

If there are material changes once an I-864 is filed and the time of the interview, the person making the affidavit needs to inform the appropriate authority. I think we both agree that the I-864 has to be accurate when submitted and when reviewed by the CO.

While the two cases are not linked. I used the word concurrent as to mean that both cases will be handled at the US Embassy probably during overlapping time periods. It's unlikely if the petitions for both uncles are filed at the same time that one uncle will have a I-864 submitted and an interview before another I-864 is submitted for the other uncle. I agree with you that is possible for this to happen, but improbable.

After reviewing the instructions for Form I-864; Q9 instructs that those on other visa petitions not be counted and Q21 on household size instructs the sponsor to only list his household members and LPRs (already in the US) that the affidavit maker has sponsored. So the petitioner would have a household of 8 on one of the I-864 (5 of his own + the uncle with 3 family members) and a household of 10 on the other I-864 (5 of his own + the uncle with 5 family members).

I think the OP can be the joint sponsor for both uncles if necessary. Since I am not the CO, I don't know how they would handle this. Would they recognize that the petitioner is filing for two families? Don't know if they will make that connection.
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